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Old Aug 02, 2005, 02:36 PM // 14:36   #261
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Originally Posted by Phades
Let me use an example im a bit more familiar with than the swg one you provided. I avoided that game personally, no fault to those that tried to of course. For the first ~6 months of planetside people began noticing problems with the balance of weapons between the 3 different factions. (I dont know what happened prior to that time, as i was not in the beta) There was also one side that was consistantly losing every day, which indirectly supported this sentiment. Later the player base basically proved that their weapons were mathmatically inferior based around the mechanics of the game. While this occured the representative of the development team in more than one instance stated that the game is as intended and that our numbers were wrong. Although it didnt explain why near stationary targets could begin to move and outrun projectiles that were supposadly faster than their max speed.

The development team, as the game reached month 7, began "small changes". By this time the community began to shift away from the "weaker" team or quit altogether due to frustration and the dislike for a monthly fee as their game cards expired. These changes did not address the basic and fundamental game issues causing the problems, while at the same time began adding spins on content. Each side began to have more flavor and diversity with the performance of vehicles and they added more vehicles. Unfortunatly, when adding these new vehicles and doing some small fine tuning to the weapons, created situations where the weapons could not strike a target that it was intended to counter. The projectile simply did not fly far enough, this was partly due to the guidance mechanism for it, which was causing the initial speed problem. The thing had problems (even visually) tracking a target while changing elevations. There were other problems within the elevation changes that caused high speed ground based travel to incur damage while even making the slightest changes in elevation. This was otherwise known as unarmored units dying while walking down stairs, but could jump from the roof of a building and live. They continued to make bandaid changes to reduce the bad side of the effects while not addressing the real issue of the elevation code. Many times breaking other aspects of the game while making these adjustments in "small changes". The game prediction code also had issues with high speed objects that changed elevation rapidly causing many different warping effects, which was not addressed for around a year and still only used a work around to fix it and still existed in other areas of the game. There were many other oversites such as over powered combinations working towards the primary playstyle of the game defeating all others for different reasons, in addition to flavor mechanics creating artificial crutches on weaponry over distance and the weaponry class was designed to operate at a distance competing against others of the same class. These things were also brought up by the community and largely ignored for many months. There were even basic damage to clip to time spent reloading calculations that went ignored for months or longer in some cases close to a year, with the little changes still leaving it sub-par after it was addressed.

Months would pass while many issues were ignored or only given a band-aid, while the development team (who many of the lead designers were continually cycled out to other jobs) continued to release buggy and incomplete content, some of which was pay for content. Durring the testing phases, most of the problems and bugs were found from the player base and would continue to be problems for months to a year or more before it wold be addressed. Many of the changes ended up being word for word suggestions for a fix from the playerbase, but unfortunatly many of those people who were working for change ended up moving on from the game long before the changes came to be. This is the problem with "small changes".

Things such as changing the mechanic of the melee animation in conjuction for the timing of skills and movement is something that would require alot of reworking of the basic game functions and could likely cause some unintended side effects. Changing the refresh time on enchantment spells is not something that would require alot of reworking. Setting the value for remove all enchantments upon effect from 1 to 0 is not something that would require alot of reworking. Doing both internally and reviewing the ability to heal versus the ability to damage then implementing other fixes to compensate would take some time, but is not on the same level as the first example. Addressing a fundamental issue of unlimited reuse and redundancy of skills is something very basic to the core of the game, but needs to be changed, opposed to making a bandaid fix that would limit just one spirit out at a time in the same area of effect and would most likely require more coding to sort out all the contingencies. This would be instead of changing the values of the refresh times for the skills that make the afore mentioned skills potentially abusive. In reality both probably need to occur, but doing one then evaluating the change then doing the next is acceptable opposed to the long silence and possible change after the community has splintered or moved on.
Please, you should know then that even small changes can have bouncing repurcussions, which is why changes should be rolled out slowly and carefully, to help mitigate those effects. Remember Lasher 2.0? That was a small change, and it caused a huge ripple. Now look at BFRs, a large change that caused even more havoc. Also change management is hard to do in software. You cannot make a product that you just change values in willy nilly, because that has the potential to make things a disaster. Changing a value shouldn't cause any problems, but what if it does due to some non-obvious bug or ramification. More importantly is what the value to is to be changed to. Is x enough? What about x-10? x+10? So balance isn't simply as easy as hand waving.

Granted I think test cycles in almost all games should be more rigurous to test these things, but you also run into participation problems in many games. And listening to your playerbase as a whole is generally a recipe for disaster. People frequently suggest implausible or just plain bad things. Seperating that signal from the overwhelming noise is also a trial I'd imagine.

And finally, I think A.Net has been making at least some progress on making good changes to the game. Faction was a nice start for the PvP crowd, though I think that the cost of the unlocks should be dropped, maybe by a factor of 2 or so (maybe 3 for elite skills). Capturing was also made immensly easier when they changed the SoC system. Quests have been added with skill rewards, reducing the number of SPs needed to unlock all the skills for a class. Are there problems? Of course, but even the gold standard of balanced PvP, Starcraft, took a long time to reach its current state.
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Old Aug 02, 2005, 05:51 PM // 17:51   #262
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Trying to balance damage over time versus damage now is never going to work. Thats why all of the lasher "fixes" were basically bones to try and switch the flavor of the month. That specific example was poor to begin with, but the others like the damage degregation, tiny clip sizes, poor orb speeds were very real. The thing is the changes must happen and they must be tested and the feedback must be listened to. One of the major failings PS managed to achieve while using their public test staging areas is that they didnt listen to the testers and allowed the bad changes, like lasher 2.0 to go through to live.

I didnt hang around till BFRS personally, because i could see the road the game was taking and rated it against the time it took to inflict positive change (see flail and initial starfire changes, in addition to quasar) and decided it wasnt worth another 6 months to a year worth of subscription to have occur.

There is a difference between quality and quantity. Both should be addressed seperatly. It is easier to test changes that are done together, especially ones that affect each other like the NR commentaries opposed to only making one change and leaving the rest of the problem broken. It was similar to comparing 1 weapon modification within that game versus the "balance pass" that redefined the use and purpose for many vehicles. The lighter ground vehicles still were largely ignored, but the real tanks stopped being slow, tinfoil, coffins(er backpacks). Not that it didnt stop them from killing their acceleration ratio later on trying to adjust the effectiveness of running people over in static areas, but that is going more the quality route instead of taking action. Then again, i missed the days where jumping out of a plane would mean damage or death due to overal height and speed (yay for disposable/guided drop pods -_-; ), the need for careful manuvering over terrain to avoid getting stuck or flipped over (sunderbus was always too topheavy though) and the longrange fights before the battles were initially streamlined into the surgile mechanic. That was more of a byproduct of game objective mechanics combined with weapon ranges, but blah.

Anyhow, this is the difference between agressively approaching the situation opposed to passivly waiting and seeing what happens.

Last edited by Phades; Aug 02, 2005 at 07:09 PM // 19:09..
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